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Thread: Ignorant Paypal, Chargeback dispute.

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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    24

    Default Ignorant Paypal, Chargeback dispute.

    Hello all

    Since 9th December Paypal have told me that the buyer of a webdevelopment package which I had invoiced for the seller/developer (i'll explain further soon) had intiated a chargeback under the code of 83 which means the payment was unauthorised. I really dont see how it was unauthorised because the invoice was sent to the buyer who clicked on Pay Invoice, I did not force them at all. The invoice was for $2000+. So I was looking over Paypal's guides on how to investigate and how they investigate wrong chargebacks, and what it suggests is to contact the buyer, And so over the 13 days i sent 4 emails to the buyer and I recieved no reply at all, and i also sent several emails to the buyer via my business email with no reply at all, So each day i added a note to the PayPal dispute page letting paypal know that the buyer does not obviously want to communicate so there is little more I could do, i also rang up PayPal to see if there was anything I could do and the person on the phone said they would put a note on my account to show that I did ring up to try and fix this.

    And so today I recieved this email from PayPal
    Title: The buyer's credit card company reversed the charges for a payment you received. (Case ID no ****)

    Dear ****,

    Using the information you sent us, we are disputing the buyer's request to
    reverse the payment.

    The buyer's card company has reversed the charges for this payment. The
    funds have been removed from your account at this time. If the card company
    decides the case in your favour, the funds will be available in your PayPal
    account.

    The credit card company has charged PayPal a settlement fee for this
    chargeback. According to the terms of the PayPal User Agreement, we debited
    your PayPal account to cover this fee.


    -----------------------------------
    Transaction Details
    -----------------------------------


    Buyer's name: ******
    Buyer's email: ****
    Transaction ID: ****

    Transaction date: 30 Oct 2011
    Transaction amount: -$2,665.00 USD
    Case no.: ********
    Your transaction ID: ****

    -----------------------------------
    What to Do Next
    -----------------------------------

    To learn more about how to respond to a reversed payment, visit the
    Resolution Centre and check out our tutorials.

    If you want to send over additional information, please provide it as soon
    as possible. Just log in to your PayPal account, go to the Resolution
    Centre and click “Details” next to this case. For faster processing, choose
    "Upload files".

    If your PayPal account balance is negative because of this payment
    reversal, please reimburse us by adding funds to your account or by sending
    a check to the following address:

    PayPal
    Attn: Accounting Department
    P.O. Box 45950
    Omaha, NE 68145-0950
    United States
    -----------------------------------
    Due Dates
    -----------------------------------

    Keep in mind that the timeframe and outcome are determined by the credit
    card company, not PayPal. It may take up to 75 days for the card company to
    reach a final decision.

    You're responsible for the amount of the reversed payment until the card
    company reaches a decision. If your PayPal balance is negative because of
    this, please add funds to your account as soon as possible.


    -----------------------------------
    Other details:
    -----------------------------------

    Reason for reversal

    This transaction is not marked as eligible for Seller Protection.


    Questions? Go to your PayPal account and click "Help" the top right corner
    of any page.

    Yours sincerely,

    PayPal
    It does say that If my account is now in the negative that I should add funds to my account. The problem is, I cant because i dont have any funds, my account is linked to my bank account and that does not have that many funds, The money that i recieved from the buyer was sent to the seller last month. So i've been looking paypals User Agreement: [url]https://cms.paypal.com/uk/cgi-bin/?cmd=_render-content&content_ID=ua/UserAgreement_full&locale.x=en_GB[/url] And if you look at 5.2 :
    5.2 Amounts you owe us and Multiple Currencies. If one of the currency Balances in your Account shows that you owe us an amount of funds for any reason, PayPal may set-off the amount you owe us by using funds you maintain in a different currency Balance or by deducting amounts you owe PayPal from money you receive into your Account, or money you attempt to withdraw or send from your Account, or in a different Account, and by deducting funds from any withdrawals you attempt to make. If, for a period of 21 Days, you have a Balance that reflects an amount owing to us that is not in Euros, PayPal will convert the amount you owe us to Euros (the Exchange Rate & Fee will be applied to any conversion).
    At no point in that paragraph does it say that any money owed will be taken from my bank account. So if i keep checking my bank every day I should not see a payment taken out of my bank from paypal for this money? And what exactly does it mean "set-off"?

    As i mentioned at the beginning, I am in sense, the middle man , This person has several other people working for him doing the same job, invoicing people for web based products (web development etc) and forwarding the money onto him minus a $500 fee (to keep for your self). I have done 2 invoices and i've only had 1 of them chargeback so far. Last time i heard from him was a few weeks back when he had just come out from hospital, So several times during this I have emailed him with no reply and also tried to contact him on MSN, I have no idea wether he is just simply blocked/ignoring me or is genuinally away from a computer/msn/internet or back in hospital. So i have got my friend to add him on MSN and to monitor wether or not he comes online so i can see if he's blocking me or not.

    I was going to do a chargeback on one of the payments i sent to the seller but because it was sent money abroad option on my bank, I rang them up earlier and they said they would take a 25.00 fee from me for the chargeback but it would not gurantee that i would get the money back, so even if i did not get the money back i would still be 25.00 out of pocket.

    So, so far im a bit confused and not exactly sure what I should do. Supposing reading the email the credit card company from the buyer could still delcine to continue the chargeback and my paypal balance will be returned to a netural state.

    Regards

  2. #2

    Default

    Wow that is quite the pickle you are in. I would not pay any money to paypal for any negative balance your account is in.
    Are you planning to keep using paypal in the future? If that is the case then you may want to pay them.

    What paypal is asking from you is to pay the balance that your customer owes you, $2,665.00 USD and then sit back and wait 75 days to see if you may get that money back. This is just absurd.

    In case of a charge back there will be an investigation done and I would suggest that, if you have not all ready been contacted by the buyers credit card company regarding this dispute, you contact them and submit all the evidence you have regarding this transaction.

    THe buyer clicked on the option to pay the invoice so where is the unauthorised charge?

    But just because it seems obvious to you doesn't mean that you'll win this one. Paypal works in screwy ways.

    Paypal can and does regularly take money out of users bank account so don't think they won't do that. I read somewhere in this forum that paypal will automatically take money from you after a certain period of time which this user thought was 43 days.

    I wish you the best of luck (much of luck is needed when dealing with paypal). Sorry I could not be of more help.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    24

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pintsizeduk View Post
    Wow that is quite the pickle you are in. I would not pay any money to paypal for any negative balance your account is in.
    Are you planning to keep using paypal in the future? If that is the case then you may want to pay them.

    What paypal is asking from you is to pay the balance that your customer owes you, $2,665.00 USD and then sit back and wait 75 days to see if you may get that money back. This is just absurd.

    In case of a charge back there will be an investigation done and I would suggest that, if you have not all ready been contacted by the buyers credit card company regarding this dispute, you contact them and submit all the evidence you have regarding this transaction.

    THe buyer clicked on the option to pay the invoice so where is the unauthorised charge?

    But just because it seems obvious to you doesn't mean that you'll win this one. Paypal works in screwy ways.

    Paypal can and does regularly take money out of users bank account so don't think they won't do that. I read somewhere in this forum that paypal will automatically take money from you after a certain period of time which this user thought was 43 days.

    I wish you the best of luck (much of luck is needed when dealing with paypal). Sorry I could not be of more help.
    I have not recieved anything from the buyers credit card company at all, and i dont know who the buyers credit card company is full stop. So what would you suggest I do ? And what evidence would i have. And as you said there, the buyer clicked on pay invoice so i dont understand how it can be a unauthorised transaction.

    Can Paypal even take money out of my bank if theres not enough in there, and if they do surely i can file a chargeback on that payment on my bank because that would of been a unauthorised transaction as i did not personally authorise paypal to take that money. Could i not claim that paypal are trying to be fraudsters of some sort here either?

    And no, not really am i looking to keep it, if paypal cant even take a person who is fully verified into any consideration then no im not really bothered in keeping it

  4. #4

    Default

    Your evidence would be your invoice, e-mails you have sent to the buyer, your paypal statement showing when transaction took place etc.

    Paypal will overdraft your bank account if you don't have sufficient funds and you will then also be slapped with a NSF charge that is typically 30 bucks.

    I would suggest that you close the bank acccount you have linked to your paypal account and also report any credit or debit card you ever gave paypal as lost. Just get new cards that paypal does not have the numbers to.

    If they end up ruling in your favor you can just ask for a check to be sent to you via mail and if they don't rule in your favor and send your negative paypal balance to collections you just tell any collection agency contacting you that you never owed this money and if they continue to attempt to collect a debt that you are not liable for you will sue them. This should stop them from calling you again since they must prove that you owethis money and they can't do this as they bought the debt for pennies on the dollar..

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    24

    Default

    Well my debit card which is linked to paypal is no longer in use because i had to get a new card because my old one was damaged so that one is no longer in use. the one paypal have is expired and they do not have details of my new one.

    I've been reading around on here and what people have done is if they have taken money from their bank is to log into their paypal, change all the details, unlink bank and cards etc, then close the account and then do a chargeback on the paypal payment from your bank as unauthorised payment which will put your paypal balance back into negative and paypal will demand you put it back into positive but nothing you can do because its closed..

    I could if they get a company onto me is also send them that letter which is on the FAQ on this site.

  6. #6

    Default

    The thing is you can't delete any information you have given to paypal. Even if you unlink your bank account they still keep the informatiln that is why it is best to just start over with all nev bank information that paypal does not have accress to.

    Work with your bank and see if they can help you get back the money paypal took from you unazihorised.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    24

    Default

    Well im actually 16 and i've spoken to my bank this morning to check what type of account im on and the one im on makes it impossible to have any overdraft and that any payment that tries to take money out of my account, if theres no money in my acconut the payment will decline.

  8. #8

    Default

    Yeah if you have the overdraft protection on your bank account you should be good. Have to say I am impressed with all of your knowledge at such young age. Don't let paypal set you back you'll make it big with out them.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    24

    Default

    Well a update on this situation i've found out that whats happened is that the buyer filed a chargeback because he was double charged by paypal or by paypal+ the system the buyer purchased through so he thought that the quickest way to get his money back would be a chargeback, Im expecting about $3200 from the web designers, $2700 to cover chargeback and $500 for my self, but they seem to have stopped responding so far, so im emailing them everyday and checking their DP account for last active.

    But i have contacted my bank who have said that i cant get a overdraft, i've got into about -30 once but the next day i had a payment into my bank account which covered that so i should be fine but i will be monitornig my bank every day.

    And yes working in the webmaster industry you get to learn these things

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    24

    Default

    Paypal decieded to ring me today to see if i could pay the money back and ofcourse I said no because I dont have the money anymore, and i explained the whole situation because it was quite obvious that they had not bothered to read any of my notes i included in the chargeback and told them that i was actually planning on emailing them today to let them know what was going on. So here it a copy of the email sent:

    Regarding:
    Case no.
    Buyer's name:
    Buyer's email:
    Transaction ID:

    Transaction date:
    Transaction amount: -$2,665.00 USD
    Case no.:
    Your transaction ID:


    Hello
    Paypal has today rang me asking if i can pay this money back soon. The simple answer is no because I dont have any money. I said to the person on the phone that I would be emailing paypal today to explain the reason behind all of this.

    First of all it is quite clear from my self that Paypal decieded to not bother to read nay of my notes i added on the dispute which could of possibly saved alot of time and hastle. So it seems I have to explain everything here.

    I am quite simply the middleman on this transaction and you can read more of the job here:[url=http://forums.digitalpoint.com/showthread.php?t=2363449#post17150487]US/UK Verified Paypal Users - Constant Work - Instant Cash[/url] . I have already done 2 invoices for this person on this job and the first one was disputed because paypal and/or the web designers system had double charged him, so he thought that it would be easier and quicker if he did a chargeback on paypal. This is the only reason why there was a chargeback.

    I had finally got to know this because i was contacting this person on Digitalpoint everyday as well as emailing him:
    [email]ar@gurilla.net[/email]
    [email]bbatolx@yahoo.com[/email]
    (I included these 2 emails into the chargeback notes if you bothered to read)

    I have also been into contact with Rachel Kwan who is Gnet (Ahson Rafiq)'s Personal Assistant who contacted me on MSN to say that she had spoken with Ralf Williams about this and that he was double charged she told me that she would get the payment of $2665 authorised to send me to cover the chargeback. Since then I have no longer had contact the last contact was 2/1/12, Here is her email if you wish to contact her your self: [email]rachelkwanst@live.com[/email]
    I myself have been contacted them every day just to see if there are any emails and will be also included them into this emailing as well.

    So at the moment it's best you do some more investigations into this because it is quite obvious you have not, I will also continue to try and get in contact with these people.

    Regards

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