So I’ve been a Paypal member for years but only recently dealt with them as a Buyer.

Recently, I was helping my friend sell some guitars (5) on eBay. Every auction went fine, no issues. Then this one person who won one of the auctions who seemed a bit shady to begin with (i.e. wanted me to put some serial number on the shipping label of the package next to where their name appears) and stuck out as someone I probably shouldn’t do business with. I should have gone with my gut instinct and just denied to finish the transaction with them, but I didn't. I take full responsibility for that one.

So I ship the package out, I get UPS conformation that the buyer received the package. Literally one week later the buyer e-mails me and says, " I just received the package! Why did you send me a box of towels??", which is complete bullshit. Then they proceed to send me a picture of the supposed box that I sent them which was nowhere near the dimensions of the box I shipped which had the same label I had originally shipped in with. The label had clearly been removed and placed on this new box because there was a giant rip down the center of the label. Anyhow, we were corresponding back and forth and the buyer just stops responding to me after about two weeks. About another week goes by and now the "21 Day holding period” (Despite the fact that I’ve been an eBay member since 1997 and have flawless feedback) for funds to be released to me, which is another bullshit policy that Paypal has instituted.

The money gets released to me after the hold period and two days later the buyer files a dispute and Paypal now revokes the $1,500 (the price of the guitar the buyer won) from my account. So now I compile a series of 18 different pieces of evidence including: the shipping label, tracking information, misrepresentation of the truth on the part of the buyer in their correspondence to me, inaccuracies in the pictures they have provided, the fact that I had just sold 4 other similar items (in type and price) without any problems whatsoever and the fact that I took it upon myself to have UPS do an investigation into the matter (which I don’t think they ever did because I'm sure they don't care either who did or didn't get the package) because they never even got back to me about it.

I must have spoken with at least 5 different Paypal reps who all gave me a different story ranging from, "There's really nothing you can do" to, "Oh yeah, everything you've told me about it sounds really shady and like the person is up to something. I'll go and add that to your information about the dispute so we can review it" so a week or not even goes by, Paypal claims they're investigating this. Then I get an e-mail saying they decided in favor of the buyer granted they ship me the item back in its original condition. Then about two weeks go by and I don’t hear anything. Then out of nowhere Paypal sends me another message saying that UPS attempted to deliver the package to me three times and is being held at the facility. Turns out the buyer sent it to the wrong address. However, they did provide a tracking number when I looked it up it says the package weighed 66 pounds. That’s odd, as the guitar I sent only weighed 29 pounds. So I go to UPS to pick up the package which is this 66 pound, 4'x4'cube full of pillow covers. I then appeal the claim on the grounds that I sent the buyer a 29 pound guitar that was in a completely different-shaped box which the shipping label confirms.

So another useless conversation with a Paypal rep and day goes by and they still decide in the buyers favor and now there is nothing I can do to dispute this since, as I was told, once an appeal has been denied there is no way to overturn the decision. I don't see how any sane human being could possibly rule against my favor in this situation, but as I read on here and on other anti-Paypal sites it probably had something to do with Paypal being responsible to payback money if the seller was in favor. So now in addition to letting someone fuck my friend and I out of a $1,500 guitar, Paypal is now claiming I owe them another $1,500 and have me a negative balance.

In retrospect, I wish I would have canceled my account during that two-day period where the funds for the auction had been released, though I was still waiting on one of the other auctions funds to clear, that now, they’ve taken out due to my negative balance. You know what they say, “Hindsight is 20/20”.

This all happened in the end of November. I have a negative balance of about $1,300 and about two weeks ago I started getting calls from "800 Service". I answered it one day and it was Paypal calling for their money. I tried to tell the woman that their decision was incorrect and that I basically was not going to be settling the balance and all I got from them was, "Well, you agreed to the User Terms. People don’t always read them when they sign up. So how much money would you like to pay off to get your balance back to zero?" I asked, "Do I need to get a lawyer to settle this further?" and their response was, "Well, you can certainly do this to settle things between the buyer outside of Paypal but your complaint is with them, not us". I said, "No, it is actually with you because you made the wrong call by saying I was in the wrong and now are trying to take money from me" and just hung up on them. They usually call me about 3 times a day now.

So here I am; $1,300 in the hole (not really, but according to the numbnuts at Paypal I am), my buddy is out all of his money because Paypal revoked the funds which should rightfully have been his, he doesn't have his guitar but some worthless cunt in California does, a box full of 66 lbs of pillow covers and not many options for where to go from here.

I'm just concerned that if this goes on for long enough it may affect my credit score. I am going to be closing and re-opening a new bank account so that those scumfucks at Paypal can't try to take money that isn't theirs. Other than that, I'm not sure what else I can do besides wait it out for another 4 months and see if Paypal decides to just drop it or turn it over to a collection agency. That's why I've come to Screw Paypal and Paypal Sucks to try to fight back and get this taken care of before it comes to either of the aforementioned options. My buddy and I are going to try writing to our congressmen/women, the BBB and a few other agencies including the Internet Crime Complaint Center, because as far as I’m concerned, Paypal has aided and abetted this cunt in stealing $3,000 from me.

Even if tomorrow, Paypal miraculously got in contact with me to tell me that they made a mistake and removed the negative balance I would still tell them to “f*ck off” and close my account for being sleazy, incompetent and putting me through this whole ordeal. Besides, even if the negative balance was expunged, it doesn’t change the fact that my friend is still either out a guitar or the money he should’ve received for the guitar.

I've been an eBay member since 1997 with a flawless feedback record. I'm not sure how long I've been with Paypal but I can assure you if I were able to close my account I would. I will do my best to warn others of the atrocity that is Paypal. And seeing as how practically all eBay auctions now are "Paypal only" I will probably close my eBay account as well because I will never again use Paypal. I remember a time when eBay was a safer place to acquire hard to find items, not just a business to profit off of you. The idea of "Seller Protection" seems to be foreign to them. But at no surprise, considering Paypal can't profit as much from the Buyer being at fault. But, I guess this is what I get for trying to help out a friend, huh?

This is the kicker, their "seller protection" doesn't apply to not as described claims. Say I buy a $2000 laptop off you, you send it with tracking and then there seems to be no issues. If I pay with a Visa credit card for example I can file a chargeback for not as described or defective merchandise for up to 120 days. If they insist on me sending it back (which doesn't always happen), I can send you a box full of wrapping paper with tracking and Paypal won't do a damn thing about it. The police won't touch it as it's your word against mine. I can say you sent me a box of wrapping paper! Even "buyer protection" is deeply flawed. If I sell you the laptop I can delay sending it until you file a non receipt claim, then I can send you the box of wrapping paper with tracking and Paypal will rule in my favour. Yeah sure you can file a SNAD claim or chargeback but unless you send the box of wrapping paper back Paypal won't do anything. Also if you don't send it back with tracking then they will rule on my favour. In essence Paypal gives a false sense of security but there are holes even in so called buyer protection and their seller protection is a sham.

If you're able to zoom in on the label, it will indicate the package weight. Towels and Guitars will not weigh the same. Furthermore, the Shipper will have a record of the box size used & weight as well.

This may be the lamest attempt by a scammer I've heard of yet.

The wisest thing you can do now is report any Credit or Debit Card you ever gave PayPal as LOST. Close any Checking Account you ever gave PayPal immediately. Prevent PayPal from recovering money from you. Resign yourself that you will never again use PayPal. Tell any Collection Agency that you have never owed this money and that if they continue to attempt to collect a debt you are not liable for, you will sue them (this action makes them stop as they must prove you owe, which they can't do as they bought the debt for pennies on the dollar). Google Checkout is a good alternative. Opening a Merchant Account is another.

And lastly - PayPal does not report to any of three big Credit Reporting Agencies as I believe those agencies don't believe anything PayPal has to say.

Exactly! No matter what, you get screwed. It seems like whomever Paypal can profit the most off of is the side they take, which is usually the Buyer. The state of eBay/Paypal nowadays is seriously deplorable. Just like with everything else, they're only out to make a buck off of you. I understand there are fee's that go along with maintaining a business and especially one as large as eBay, but the shit they do on there and Paypal with hiking up the fee's and all of this shady bullshit with "If you want to use our service, you give us complete access to your money and let us do whatever we want with it" is goddamn ridiculous. Especially if it's something that Paypal just does because they feel like fucking with you and taking your money for no good reason.

I hear stories of film companies who target people for illegally downloading one of their films by looking at router addresses and then opening a giant class action lawsuit against 2,000+ people at the same time. But if you're unfortunate enough to not have password protected your router and someone who was using your wireless downloaded that movie you're fucked. Because it's like, "Well, I'm completely innocent but it would cost a hell of a lot more to have to hire a lawyer, go to trial and pay for all of those fees for a case that I'm not even guaranteed to win or I could just pay the settlement price and be done with it."

You could compare it to someone going, "Well, I can sue you for xxxxxx and I know you can't afford a lawyer and/or don't want to go through the whole court proceedings so we can settle this and you can pay me xxxxxx before it comes to trial". That's kind of how I feel in this situation

That was one of the main points I was arguing when I was defending my case! Compounded with the fact that the label in the picture was clearly altered I don't see how you could possibly go against that.Altered Label.JPG Just take a look at the pictures that they sent to me-Box.jpg Even when they shipped the box that they claimed I sent them in this picture back to me, the weight was 66 lbs!! There was even a conversation I had with this guy who e-mailed me out of the blue claiming to be the recipient of the package aside from the BUyer whom I was in contact with who said, "I acknowledge that UPS may have made an error or is responsible for the switching of the items". That's like saying you admit that it's not even my fault, which is total bullshit, too because I don;t believe for a second that someone at UPS would go steal a guitar, and then switch it will some random package.

It was an incredibly lame scam but apparently it's not very hard to pull one over on Paypal. Or a more realistic scenario is that Paypal just doesn't give a fuck and went "Ok, so by siding with the Buyer we stand to make $1,500 from them".

Thank you for the advice. I actually just closed out my bank account, got a new one and a new bank card earlier today. I'm going to be writing letters to my congresspeople, the Better Business Bureau, Internet Crime Complaint Center, etc... about this because now I don't just want this negative balance expunged, I want the entire $3,000+ that I rightfully have coming to me.

And I think I'm done with online auctions and having to set up accounts with my bank account information and all that. This whole ordeal has turned me off of that.

Sometime in the future I hope PayPal becomes regulated and monitored by the feds. As they are dealing with millions and millions of dollars every day, I can't fathom how they are allowed to operated unmonitored.

I now believe that PayPal does not care that the pay the fees.

I sold a complete marine GPS unit on eBay, offered insurnace to the buyer (which was declined), the unit arrives (had delivery confirmation). The buyer emails me that unit was damaged in shipping. I told him that isurnace was offered, he declined but return it to me and I'll look at it.

I recieved the unit back, it was damaged but the remote was missing ($295 for remote), he files a SNAD claim, I esculate it because the remote was missing. Supplied documentation that remote was missing and buyer didn't return unit in same box and no packing. PayPal found in his favor (which is beyond my comprehension), I filed an appeal, with addition documentation. The buyer was to reply to my esculation about missing remote, his reply, "Seller is a liar", that was it, nothing else, no documentation. PayPal found in his favor again.

What I gather is:

1. PayPal doesn't care that sellers pay the fees
2. PayPal condones thieft by buyers
3. PayPal doesn't follow their own policies

Any thoughts, how does seller protection work, or does it.....

That is some story... Seriously, I feel for you.

I'm proud of you for taking the money out of PayPal when you had the chance... GOOD FOR YOU!!!!

All I can say is F__K Paypal and F__K eBay. Yes I'm 100% serious.

I stopped selling on eBay about 2 years ago because I realized that sellers on eBay today are sitting ducks to FRAUD.

All someone has to do is buy something and LIE LIE LIE and they get a FREE item and A FULL refund.

Sad... That it has come to this... If you ask me eBay and PayPal are doing the same thing as the movie MARGIN CALL... They know they are going down, they are just making $$$$ as long as they can till the big lawsuit comes at which point they will file BANKRUPTCY and walk away with BILLIONS in profits.

I swear watch and see... I give them till around 2015 and the whole game get's shut down by the feds.