NoPaypal
You are not logged in! [ LOGIN ] or [ REGISTER ]
NoPaypal » Horror Stories: PayPal Did it! » Thread: How many of you have read Judge Fogel's decision? -- Page 1 | Jump To: 

Sender Message
Thread: How many of you have read Judge Fogel's decision?
PaypalSucks
Administrator

From: N/A
Messages: 2076
 How many of you have read Judge Fogel's decision?
Sent: 05-19-2004 15:34
  Reply



Quote:
PaypalSucks,
How much did you lose to paypal? Payponzi took about 30k out of my account. The arbitration cost over 200k. I still owe payponzi 20k+, the arbitration 5k+ and my lawyers over 30k.
How much are your rights worth? how much is it worth to get that judgement off you? Priceless

$5k sounds like a reasonable number.
It is providing you have it.

Heck, the lawyers you owe money to would be the first ones I'd go to. This would be a great way for them to get paid. Based on what I know of these types of situations, this is a pretty simple case: You (and hence your legal team) suffered monetory losses due to actions of PayPal that were later declared unconscionable by a federal judge. You lost $30K? Plus you have a debt of another $30K to your lawyers? That's $5k to eliminate $60K of debt?

If it were me, I'd find $5k to eliminate $60K of debt. Wouldn't it be nice to have a judge order PayPal to give you back your $30K, order PayPal to write a check to your lawyers for another $30K, and another $5K to the arbitrator?

Guess it's just me.

 

CLICK HERE FOR THE BEST PAYPAL ALTERNATIVE


Stoney
Message Maniac

From: Texas
Messages: 242
 How many of you have read Judge Fogel's decision?
Sent: 05-19-2004 15:17
  Reply



PaypalSucks, By the way they didn't get my sense of humor

 

CLICK HERE FOR THE BEST PAYPAL ALTERNATIVE


Stoney
Message Maniac

From: Texas
Messages: 242
 How many of you have read Judge Fogel's decision?
Sent: 05-19-2004 14:53
  Reply



PaypalSucks,
How much did you lose to paypal? Payponzi took about 30k out of my account. The arbitration cost over 200k. I still owe payponzi 20k+, the arbitration 5k+ and my lawyers over 30k.
How much are your rights worth? how much is it worth to get that judgement off you? Priceless

$5k sounds like a reasonable number.
It is providing you have it.

 

CLICK HERE FOR THE BEST PAYPAL ALTERNATIVE


PaypalSucks
Administrator

From: N/A
Messages: 2076
 How many of you have read Judge Fogel's decision?
Sent: 05-18-2004 04:31
  Reply



Quote:
PaypalSucks, Checked around and can't find a lawyer that will take it without money upfront. Most want 5k upfront.
How much did you lose to paypal? How much are your rights worth? how much is it worth to get that judgement off you? $5k sounds like a reasonable number.

 

CLICK HERE FOR THE BEST PAYPAL ALTERNATIVE


Stoney
Message Maniac

From: Texas
Messages: 242
 How many of you have read Judge Fogel's decision?
Sent: 05-16-2004 19:10
  Reply



PaypalSucks, Checked around and can't find a lawyer that will take it without money upfront. Most want 5k upfront.

 

CLICK HERE FOR THE BEST PAYPAL ALTERNATIVE


PaypalSucks
Administrator

From: N/A
Messages: 2076
 How many of you have read Judge Fogel's decision?
Sent: 05-04-2004 04:54
  Reply



Stoney,

Let me know :-)

 

CLICK HERE FOR THE BEST PAYPAL ALTERNATIVE


Stoney
Message Maniac

From: Texas
Messages: 242
 How many of you have read Judge Fogel's decision?
Sent: 04-30-2004 23:08
  Reply



PaypalSucks, You have a good point,monday I'll make some calls. You might have to get some donations for me but if this worked it could break their back or put a dent in it.

 

CLICK HERE FOR THE BEST PAYPAL ALTERNATIVE


PaypalSucks
Administrator

From: N/A
Messages: 2076
 How many of you have read Judge Fogel's decision?
Sent: 04-30-2004 18:01
  Reply



Stoney,

Not an appeal. I brand new civil lawsuit. In fact, it could be another class auction: all those who were forced to an arbitration. Since the arbitration clause was stuck down, that means Paypal disregarded your basic civil rights to a trial by jury. Yes, I realize I'm using terminology that usually applies to criminal cases, but I still think there is a basis for a case here.

You had a right to have your dispute heard by a jury or at least a judge. Paypal denied you that right by forced arbitration. Which was later found to be unconscionable by a federal judge.

As an example, I know of a guy who was found guilty of crime. 5 years later the statute was overturned as unconstitutional. So the guy filed a case to have his conviction vacated and purged from his record. Which was successful. Yes, I realize I'm talking criminal law again. Still seems to me, civil law should have something similiar.

Buttom line is that PayPal's unconscionable ToS caused you to be denied a right you have under the constitution. Amendment 7:

In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

Since Paypal it outside of all statute law (since it operates in a legal limbo, I'd say Common Law should apply.) That feels like a class action lawsuit to me, or at least something for you. You have damages you can prove.

 

CLICK HERE FOR THE BEST PAYPAL ALTERNATIVE


Stoney
Message Maniac

From: Texas
Messages: 242
 How many of you have read Judge Fogel's decision?
Sent: 04-30-2004 17:36
  Reply



PaypalSucks, The arbitration rules won't allow an appeal.

 

CLICK HERE FOR THE BEST PAYPAL ALTERNATIVE


PaypalSucks
Administrator

From: N/A
Messages: 2076
 How many of you have read Judge Fogel's decision?
Sent: 04-30-2004 16:17
  Reply



Stoney,


I agree. Why can't you file a suit against PayPal? With so much money at stake, perhaps a lawyer would be willing to take the case.

 

CLICK HERE FOR THE BEST PAYPAL ALTERNATIVE


Stoney
Message Maniac

From: Texas
Messages: 242
 How many of you have read Judge Fogel's decision?
Sent: 04-30-2004 16:09
  Reply



PaypalSucks, If he'd made that decision a year earlier it would it would have meant a million dollars to me.

 

CLICK HERE FOR THE BEST PAYPAL ALTERNATIVE


PaypalSucks
Administrator

From: N/A
Messages: 2076
 How many of you have read Judge Fogel's decision?
Sent: 04-28-2004 16:47
  Reply



Everyone talks about this, but how many of you have actually read it?

Everyone talks about the arbitration clause being struck down, but really he struck the entire agreement down because it's unconscionable. (Basically because the entire terms were so one sided. That Paypal had all the power and the users had none. But don't take my word for it. Just read it. I put some of the more delicious parts below.)

Everyone should read every word of this decision. Even if you are not a lawyer, read it anyways. Also read the footnotes where he scolds PayPals attornies. (We already knew they were dimwits, now it's published.)

Quoting from the decision:



Plaintiffs [the people who brought the suit against Paypal] object strenuously to the Court’s consideration of the Supplemental Material. They argue that PayPal filed these documents in violation of this Court’s Local rules, and that the documents demonstrate that PayPal’s original claim that Toher agreed to arbitration was false. The Court agrees that the filing did not comply with the Local Rules, and one reasonably may infer from the circumstances that PayPal’s counsel at the very least were negligent in their original representations to the Court. The Court does not take such irregularities lightly and will not hesitiate to impose sanctions should this situation arise again. Nonetheless, because it concludes that the interests of justice are best served by reaching Plaintiffs’ unconscionability arguments, the Court has given counsel the benefit of the doubt and has considered the Supplemental Material.



PayPal argues that because the User Agreement entered into by Toher provides that “this Agreement is subject to change at any time without notice,” she assented to the arbitration clause that PayPal inserted into a subsequent version of the User Agreement. In light of the disposition of the motion, the Court need not decide whether such a provision ever could result in a binding agreement to arbitrate. As discussed below, however, PayPal’s unilateral and apparently unfettered right to revise the User Agreement does bear on the question of whether the User Agreement is substantively unconscionable.




The record also demonstrates that individuals who are not account holders must register with the service as a precondition to accessing funds that an account holder sends to them. Although none of the named Plaintiffs opened an account by such means, the Court notes that such individuals would not have any meaningful alternatives available to them.




Having considered the terms of the User Agreement generally and the arbitration clause in particular, as well as the totality of the circumstances, the Court concludes that the User Agreement and arbitration clause are substantively unconscionable under California law and that arbitration cannot be compelled herein. Good cause therefor appearing, IT IS HEREBY ORDERED that the motions to compel individual arbitration are DENIED.




emphasis mine to make it clear what he's saying.

http://paypalsucks.com/Fogel-PayPal.pdf

 

CLICK HERE FOR THE BEST PAYPAL ALTERNATIVE




Statistics

Currently Online: 4 Guests Most ever: 152
Total number of messages: 78437
Total number of topics: 31645
Total number of registered users: 102969
This page was built together in: 0.9918 seconds

Make Your Own Website

Credit Card Processing

New PayPal Forums

PayPal Alternative

Free Shopping Cart Software